Not Quite Caesar's Sister...
My guild is currently analyzing the details of the combat log in our forum. If you'd like to do the same, I challenge you to tell me what I did wrong, what I should have done, what my opponent did wrong, and what my opponent should have done. I can come up with about 3 to 5 things in each category. Let's see how many you can come up with!
[the ultimate answer is that I should not have won this fight. the other rogue underestimated me, and lost because of it]
(right click and save target/link as for best performance)
Note: since I was not anticipating an attack, I had to hit my record video button a moment or two after Octavia started attacking me (which again shows how improbable it was that I won, since I had to take the time out to hit the button!), so it doesn't start at the very beginning. Also, since the fight actually lasted less than 45 seconds, the full-speed video runs by in the blink of an eye. Therefore, I reduced it to half speed so you can see what's happening (some of it is pretty cool stuff that you don't normally get to see because things are happening in a blur in real time). Finally, I'll give you bonus props if you can name the band playing the soundtrack, and extra super bonus props if you know the name of the song.
posted by Psyae at 2:48 PM
31 Comments:
my quick analysis
he wrong:
- should have vanished+cheapshot as soon as you parried his kidney shot
- should have used something more intresting instead of simply spamming backstab
- didnt use blind
- he forgot to put up poison
you can see that he wasn't really serious about winning, especially the last desperate 400ish eviscerate is telling.
you wrong:
- didn't use blind (especially intead of the potion, blind + bandage , depending on how close you were to dying)
- didnt use blade flurry
- didnt use adrenaline rush
- forgot to dance on the corpse after making him bite the dust
in any case:
Yay for winning against the dishonorable rogue ganker!
Good analysis, Splinter.
For your reward, I'm posting the video.
(It's at half speed, so we can analyze it even better!)
ah, so you DID dance over the dead body ;-)
after looking at it I see that you could have easily used blind instead of the potion, but I can't see if your Adrenaline rush and blade flurry were on cooldown.
( on the other hand using blind is dangerous against rogues that are higher lvl than you, because if the subsequent stunlock fails for whatever reason, they "suddenly" remember to use it on you :-P )
Other than that I really see nothing that could be improved on your performance. Actually I think this is top pvp, I would have been all "OMG lv60 rogue ambushed me, I'm so dead, no! no! no!".
Hat's off for keeping the cool and not going down without a fight and actually coming out on top.
Just reading the opening lines of the combat log, it seemed your opponent's opening moves were weak. I'd imagine (only having played a rogue to level 45) that a 60 Rogue should lead in with utter devastation before you can even look up again.
Excellent use of the stun locks. You played the last quarter of the fight with 250 or so points left and they at quarter health? I wonder if that rogue was thinking "Just one more hit. Just one more hit. All I need is one more hit. One ..." stunned. And then dead.
Sweet.
First of all, thanks, Kinless. :)
I did this analysis:
Okay, to clear much up, I did a full analysis of every hit. I found that I was mostly right about everything. Note that I'm 99% certain that Octavia didn't ever take a potion or make any other attempt to heal.
Psyae
White hits
292 (crit)
73
162
76
136
81
146
165
159
79
123
77
75
259 (crit)
=== 1903
Yellow hits
203 (riposte)
389 (ss)
189 (ss)
165 (ss)
169 (ss)
196 (ss)
93 (instant poison)
188 (ss)
113 (instant poison)
97 (instant poison)
=== 1802
Octavia's health (my total damage done) = 3705
My Heal
1350
Octavia
hits
112
55
389 (bs)
58
111 (crit)
75
145
63
246 (crit)
424 (bs)
1675 (evis)
115 (crit)
132 (gouge crit)
998 (bs crit)
390 (evis)
Octavia's total damage done
=== 4988
(minus my 1350 heal, is 3638, just a little below my health)
Thus, Octavia actually had about 50 more health than I did (at least at the start of the fight). Plus, from the "Octavia gains 25 energy" log entries and "cold blood", we know Octavia is heavy in assassination.
Let's look at the number of hits in total.
I hit Octavia a total of: 24 times, doing 3705 total damage
Octavia hit me: 15 times, doing 4988 total damage
For the fun of it, we can get the average per hit for each of us.
My average damage per hit: 154.375
Octavia's average damage per hit: 332.53
Wow. More than double mine. And I'm using sloooow maces (btw, none of which ever procced my mace spec stun the entire fight).
Some might say that shows the obvious sign that my spec/gear sucks. However, let's look at where my damage was coming from, compared to Octavia's.
Octavia damaged me 6 out of 15 times with a skill strike (bs, gouge, or eviscerate). I damaged Octavia 10 out of 24 times with a skill strike (including poison). Octavia damaged me 9 out of 15 times with a non-skill hit (white hit), but I damaged Octavia 14 out of 24 times with a white hit.
The first thing you should get out of this is that Octavia is built for pvp, and can deal a great amount of damage in a very little amount of time, which is very good for pvp (since it's often the best thing to take out cloth-wearers and other healers quickly in pvp). But, considering the gear and level differences, me doing 1300 less damage over the same amount of time isn't all that bad. Why? Because I'm much better suited for pve. Octavia is an aggro hazard, whereas I'm doing a nice overall average damage. At the same time, against mediocre and sometimes average ability rogues, I'm still rather effective in pvp, especially when I get any form of support, and I can do a good job of tanking a flag in Arathi Basin, too. Octavia's build would prompt her to vanish the instant anyone came near the flag, Imp Sap, then try to ambush a second attacker. Not a bad combo, especially if she can take out a cloth wearer quickly enough to get back to the sapped player before it's too late.
I, on the other hand, have to deal with non-imp sap, and the less-than-perfect openings against most casters (just about all of them have escapes designed specifically against rogues). If I don't stun lock, I'm dead, and if I'm going up against multiple opponents, it's hard to stun lock. What I do have going for me is a greater deal of offhand damage (that evens things out nicely), a better chance to stun randomly, and riposte (useless against casters anyway). So, I'm not the absolute best at pvp. Hmmm, but then why do I normally score so high on the pvp charts with my build?
Probably the intimidating set of hammers I carry around.
Heather, you're quite right. You can usually tell a good from a bad rogue by his/her tempo and reaction speed. What I love is when a mediocre rogue tries to ambush me, and during the entire 3 second cheapshot lowers my health by less than 10%. That's such a total waste. Usually they weren't thinking about stun locks, or couldn't pull one off, and as I turn around, I laugh to myself, and usually take a nice chunk of my opponent's health in my first few counter hits.
One of my guildmates has indicated that I should have switched to offense more quickly during this fight. In other words, hit either vanish or blind immediately upon breaking stun, and then turning the battle around. I can't disagree with this notion. I barely won this battle because it was not under my control until the last few seconds. That's a death sentence to any rogue fighting a high-quality rogue opponent.
Essentially, I need to be like a mage with blink, and have my blind or vanish button spamming the moment I hear the crunch sound of cheapshot, or suddenly drop significantly in health from an ambush.
Fun!
Seeing this video, is the exact reason I will never be a rogue. The speed you have the video, is the speed I would actually move. Nice one :)
Actually, someone requested I also post the full-speed video. I have to remember to do that. Look for an update soon (maybe tonight!). Then you'll see why much of the "how to be a good pvper" post really applies to being a rogue. Especially the physiology part.
:)
You should play one anyway. It's fun! :) (and you learn how to be quicker, too)
After the Flesh. Decent band. ^^
awesome analysis and video... great job on the kill.
like the others said, you could have used blind, and maybe tried gouge again 1 more time. also, you used evasion a little to quick unless you wanted it to overlap with riposte. not sure what the time difference was there.
i was wondering though, what mod are you using that allows you to see how long CS and KS are keeping them stunned? i would love to use that.
I haven't read all the replies, but here is my analysis:
you:
- the moment you got free from his cheapshot either vanish to connect a cheapshot of your own and lock or blind (if vanish was not ready at that time) run away for free stealth come back and cheapshot.
him:
- he lost control of the fight early and instead of trying to gain control back he decided to fight toe-to-toe. Maybe he did take you lightly and calculated that a hit-for-hit fight would have made him the clear victor . . . that potion must have really pissed him off, lol.
- no poisons and from the looks of the fight . . . . it seems no fadeleaf and flash power (hehe, im looking at the glass half full :P )
- I'm not sure how quickly you vanish then connected that cheapshot, but if I see a rogue vanish, my move will be to also vanish--opening moves turn the tides
My Life With the Thrill Kill Kult -
I Am The Way Of The Future.
No?
To start he isnt very experienced PvPer, just one of those wankers that gain rank with no skill, and probaly 31 8 12 build. I guess atleast.
* Failure 1 not gogueing before you break loose from stun.
* Failure 2 why KS instead of gogue?
* Unluck 3 His KS gets parried, and you do a nice move turning on Evasation. From there he is fucked basicly,
* Failure 4 why keep fighting when its only gonna be dodge, either sprint kite or vanish.
* Failure 5 why CB evis instead of KS?, sure it must have returned from CD or gouge/KS instead with a BS CB evis and it would have been over.
* Failure 6 No crippling poision?
I think you preformed good overall, he must be ashamed, rogue vs rogue with CS to start its a slam dunk win.
Yes, it's My Life With the Thrill Kill Kult.
Should be "After the Flesh". (I'll have to check. I could have used a different song, but it's TKK)
Good job pinning that. Not many have heard of or can identify TKK.
Quote: i was wondering though, what mod are you using that allows you to see how long CS and KS are keeping them stunned? i would love to use that.
I believe it's CCWatch. I also modified the mod so that it'd reflect the mace spec stuns, as well.
Im not sure if anyone noticed but the 60 rogue had the Debuff which minuses 5% to hit if i remember and is the result of all his misses, mind you his running technique seemed very poor, you out played him with staying behind him most of the time if he had Crippling poisons i would imagine it would of been a diffrent Outcome
From an Undefined rogue on Lightings Blade :
What I saw was wrong -
#1 - The biggest thing was the fact that neither side used vanish or restealth to reestablish an opener. Until the end of course, which btw was the way it should have went from the beginning. Great job for the ending.
#2 - The undead rogue, although doing more damage did not deserve the "W". Why??? 1 - He lost control of the duel. 2 - He did not take the necessary means to regain control of the duel.
Was it Ming or Cerus that said it best when they said that being a rogue requires more finesse and timing.
**What I would have done as the horde rogue (with my build of course, and depending current cool down timers for vanish and preparation) –
#1 Stealth prevention
Open - Premeditation, Cheap Shot, Backstab, Rupture (This DOT offers an assurance that the defending rogue does not vanish)
Reset – Vanish/ Blind and restealth – Cheap shot – Hemorrhage – Hemorrhage – Eviserate or Kidney Shot to restealth.
#2 Control – the problem I see with this is the defending rogue vanishing, so I would use on a lower level rogue. I like this for SOME other classes, it seems to work well for me and I can do it over and over. At level 52 I must have done this 8 times to a 60 Druid of course back then I didn’t have Premeditation. (dang I wish I knew how to record. )
Open – Premeditation, Cheap Shot, Eviserate, Gouge (please note the defending rogue is still under Cheap Shot when Gouged)
Restealth or Vanish (reset right back in, note if vanished you maybe in combat before you have gained enough energy but if you restealth you will be good) Cheap Shot, Hemorrhage, Gouge, Eviserate (Repeat restealth as needed depending on the defenders health, replace the eviscerate …. Odd note: I always thought if your target was no longer in combat you would lose your combo points, I have found that I have not lost combo points when you get out of combat range to restealth, weird, but hey to my advantage.)
**Defending Rogue –
The entire goal is to gain control of the duel. I do not like to blow a vanish right away so I will open with Gouge first and Restealth. However, if my Gouge misses I will vanish to start the procedure above. So long as I am not DOTed all is well. If DOTed, you will have to straight duke it out till the timer is up or trinket the effect.
Let me know what you think of this, always looking for improvements on the combos to ensure victory.
Good analyses.
I didn't notice a debuff on my opponent. I'll have to check the video again. Something else I missed when I did my own analysis is that I had just been in combat moments before with some WPL mobs. I don't think my health was maxed out when Octavica attacked.
I think everyone here pretty much has been saying the same thing: gain control immediately by using vanish or other means to get to stealth, and re-open from there, trying to maintain a steady stun-lock.
I think that's solid advice. Generally, if a rogue is lucky and has the right timing, that rogue can do a pretty good job stun locking. Unfortunately, even with my mace spec, it's hard to keep opponents perpetually stun locked. Quite often, I let just one tick without a stun go by, and I nearly die as a result, even if I had full health.
On a different note, I've noticed weird happenings with keeping and losing combo points. I don't think it's consistent. Sometimes I lose them, sometimes I keep them. I think it's a combination of timing, and perhaps whether your opponent is still in "combat." I'm not sure, but it's worth a survey.
Thanks for the comments. Keep them up! :)
Everything has been said multiple times about what could have been done in the fight. So I am just going to name the song.
My Live With the Thrill Kill Kult.
After the Flesh
The song was featured on The Crow soundtrack.
Well, I figured I would post since you're on TN =P. I'm just going to use your combat log for analysis and I'll give you a few pointers. No complete rundown for obvious reasons ;). So I'll give you 3 regular and 1 advanced =P.
Standard Tips:
Use your gouge wisely. This is the #1 mistake that I notice most rogues doing. Using gogue right away greatly hampers the end game fight. Sinister strike a few times before gouge then go for kidney. Kidney is the rogue killer.
No cripple poison / positional control. Running through Octavica gave her a chance to backstab. Use cripple and keep her infront of you.
Use your CDs. You got lucky with that parry on Octavia's KS. Vanish or Blind / Bandage would reset the fight in your favor.
Advanced Tips:
After cheapshot notice what attack comes next. Backstab is an extremely flawed if it comes after CS w/o thistle or energy trinket. This will affect your strategy greatly.
If you're really serious about rogue vs rogue, let me know and we can duel a few times. I need to dispel any rumors of me sucking due to my rl friends helping me ranking up and well... sucking =P.
On a side note, you have serious potential. I thought this even before I saw you had a blog and now I'm convinced. I'm rank 13 and still have so much more to learn. And you have an open mind and willing to learn. Keep up the good work!. And... nice blog =)
Thanks for the comments, Kryptikk.
Yes, you and I have had our encounters, especially in AB/WSG. In your favor, I usually announce your movements by name, since I've seen you in action and I know you can cause some serious wreckage. I'm convinced, though, that you hunt me down personally. :)
Well, it's tough being a combat, mace specced rogue. Everyone keeps trying to convert me to daggers. Heh. Maybe one day.
Your advice is sound, of course. And great point about running "through" Octavica. In some fights, running through is beneficial, since it saves time getting "around" your opponent. However, probably not a good idea when you're fighting a non-stunned rogue.
As for dueling you, I'm certainly up for it. Let me know how you want to establish private communications, and we'll set up a time/place.
Thanks again for your input, Kryptikk.
He opened with CS>BS. Horrible.
CS>SS>gouge is the way to go. Just because someone is 58 doesn't mean they're a wet napkin. It'll get you to almost full energy by the time you Kidney shot, and then it woulda been GG you.
As soon as the CS wore off you should have turned and gouged. After the gouge you have a world of options that have already been listed.
As soon as you hit evasion(you did too early imo) other rogue should have hit evasion to counter. He could have waited you out here and then blinded.
Using a potion is weaksauce. I know I know, you're 2 levels lower. But I don't care. Blind/Bandage is the proper technique here, a potion is not.
As soon as you vanished/CS, you should have activated AR/Blade flurry(if you have it). AR after a CS is GG against a rogue.
i can't attest for what alot of the other rogues have already said, but rather than figure out what you could have done better, its safe to say 1 bow shot from him at the end instead of chasing you would have been a victory in his end. the chances of finding a worse rogue opponent are very slim. the centurion rogue is as dumb as you can get.
Psyae,
Unfortunatlely, I've only fought you three times. The other times have most likely been another player. Regardless, all three of those times you have impressed me. I'll be around this weekend if you want to set up some duels. You can bring friends but keep it in an undisclosed place =P. My AIM is Bob Bigxna. Hit me up =)
His opener is flawed.
Whether he is SF110 or CB/Prep he should have opened with CS BS Gouge, which you can connect if you time it right (Energywatch). Then KS BS Rupture, back off (possibly hit evasion at that point also), and you're pretty much screwed.
Then if you connect blind, you can't bandage and while you could get a CS off on him it would be difficult to get him 100-0 since you already used blind (and it would be on DR), vanish-CS is on DR also, and he has his blind/vanish up to mash. If you sit back and shoot bow, he can just vanish for a second opener which would be gg.
Then again with a bit of luck, AR/tea and a +25 energy proc can win before KS wears off.
Just to add to my previous post, he could also go CS BS Gouge KS BS Blind, Stealth CS BS CB Evisc for the win.
I'm just cheap with blind so I mentioned usual KS BS Rupture which is enough to beat 90% of rogues.
I would rather go for SS rather than getting that extra backstab in. Waiting for energy ticks vs another stealther could be lethal if they get the CS first.
Hey Psyae. Dunno if anyone else go this but the music is After The Flesh by My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult
I don't know if anyone's said this already because I'm too lazy to read any more, but you only lose combo points if you select a different target then the one with the combo points on it. =P
Comments for the recommended opener of "CS BS Gouge KS" - this is not going to work. CS is 60 energy and stun for only 4 secs. So it will take 2 secs to regain the 20 energy to perform a backstab. Then you have to wait 6 seconds to regain enough energy for the gouge. This combo will leave you open (opponent not stunned) for 4 seconds - very bad idea. Even if you have improved Cheapshot (40 energy cost) the stun is going to end before you regain enough energy to perform the gouge. Any class you go up against is going to be spamming their counter while stunned.
It is hard to make a recommendation as it all depends on your talent build, but with improved CS, improved SS, 5/5 on Initiative a good opener could be -
CS, SS, Gouge, KS....
IMO backstab is just too energy costly to be in an effective stunlock routine. You would have to have Premeditation and Improved CS to make the following opening stun combo - Prem, CS, BS, KS
Just so it doesn't get lost in the void, here's a quote from Raivyne:
"here's a lil video for ya. This is actually one of my favorite PvP videos for several reasons...
1) its rogue on rogue
2) the winner was 3 lvls lower than the loser
3) the winner never should have won (inferior gear, didn't get the first shot and 3 lvls below)
4) i kinda like the music...
Hope you enjoy the video is found at this link (right under the combat log shots).
To be sure there are better PvP videos out there, but i still enjoy watching this one."
She posted that on http://fabledfew.legendaryfew.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=88
And be sure to check out her blog at http://raivyne.blogspot.com/, which is also in my sidebar links.
Thanks, Raivyne!
Great analysis by Psyae and others - noting to add, tons to think about and learn from. the ONLY thing I would re-iterate is the poster who mentioned shooting with an arrow.
IF you rupture or, my fave, deadly poison a rogue, they can't stealth much, and an arrow shot is a sweet way to dispatch a pesky opponent. I think I kill as many casters with my bone bow as I do my daggers.
Again, The commentary, video, and posting of fight stats is perfect, and a textbook example of how any fight analysis should be done, pvp instance, or pve.
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